The European Union's Defence and Space commissioner (Defence minister) Andrius Kubilius has said that the bloc would like to have a "strategic partnership" with India, that would include practical cooperation between defence industries. Speaking to WION's Sidhant Sibal in Delhi, commissioner Kubilius said, "our cooperation can bring a lot of benefit, both for India and for European Union, but also for the whole global development, which is now quite turbulent". 

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The commissioner had accompanied President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen along with 22 commissioners for key talks in Delhi as India, & European Union firm up ties. During the visit, it was announced that EU is keen to have gave a Defence and Security partnership with India, on the lines of what the bloc has with South Korea, Japan. Announcement was also made on new India, EU space dialogue. 

Commissioner Kubilius spoke at length on the war in Ukraine, and also transatlantic relations with United States under the Trump administration. On the White House Spat involving President Trump, Vice President Vance and Ukraine President Zelenskyy, he said, "signal that United States perhaps disengaging both from security of Ukraine and perhaps from security of European continent". The spat shocked global capitals, including Brussels. Asked about his view on the Trump administration and European security, he said, " we need to take responsibility for European defense on our shoulders. Now it's more urgent". Full interview:


Sidhant Sibal: What is your assessment about where the future is for India-the European Union? What can the European Union give to India in terms of the Defense Partnership?

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Andrius Kubilius: Commission President's visit with all the commissioners, the college was a very significant step which shows how strategically important our relations with India are. From my personal point of view, the 21st century will be the century of space and of India, with India's role globally, both politically and economically, increasing up to global leadership. So for that reason, we, European Union as a democratic entity based on very clear democracy, human rights values, and India, which is the biggest democracy worldwide, based on the same values, our cooperation can bring a lot of benefit, both for India and for European Union, but also for the whole global development, which is now quite turbulent. There are a lot of different challenges, security challenges, both for the European Union, for India and our cooperation can be very important. Our cooperation can bring additional added value for Indian economic development. We are very big market, rich market, and you know, our economical and trade relations can bring a lot of benefit, both for India and for European union, and that is what you know both sides we agreed yesterday, between of the Indian government and the European Commission all the different formats of future partnership, starting from Free Trade Agreement, and to have a strategic pact on defense and security.

Sidhant Sibal: During the Delhi address, the President of the European Commission talked about a partnership with India on defense and security on the lines of South Korea and Japan, if you can elaborate on that.

Andrius Kubilius: Pact we can look into examples of European Union and Japan pact, on security and defense pact with South Korea. They are frameworks which define the strategic direction on what those pacts can bring for both sides, both in political cooperation on different issues related with security and defense, but also very practical operations. For example, cooperation among agencies in development of joint projects, in strengthening possibilities for export and importing, in creation of joint ventures. It depends on what we shall decide to put into that pact. But the significance of the pact, the message of the pact is of strategic importance, that is showing that the European Union and India are standing on the same basis, of the same values. And that is a very, very important message to all the world, because, as I said, the world, for the time being, is living through quite a difficult period. 

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Sidhant Sibal: Your views on India showing interest in joining, Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) of the European Union.

Andrius Kubilius: PESCO is a special program inside the European Union for development of joint defence projects. Starting from practical developments of the defense industry, with some projects like development of naval capabilities or air defense capabilities. And that is for India to be part of that, to participate in PESCO, I think it really will bring a lot of added value, because that allows India to have access to some kind of innovative ideas. For EU, it's beneficial also to have industrial power of India with possibilities to ramp up production of different weapon systems, which are very much needed for for Europe, because we're facing quite big challenges, first of all, from aggressive Russia, and we need to ramp up our production and our defense capabilities in a very urgent way, what I call the big bang way, because different European intelligence services are predicting that Russia can be ready for next aggression against EU or NATO states during the next five years. So that is what, exactly is the reason why we have a very clear wish to have a strategic partnership with India, to have also possible ways of developing partnership in between our industries and PESCO  is one of those possible instruments.

Sidhant Sibal: We saw that public spat between US President Trump, Vice President VD Vance, and Ukraine President Zelenksyy. Your reaction

Andrius Kubilius: We saw that, it is very clear, lot of European leaders, both national and commission president, after that clash, said, in a very simple way, that we stand with Ukraine and Ukraine will not stay alone, because it's difficult for us to understand what is American strategy, both towards Ukraine and towards the whole European security situation, we have had strange statements, for example, during Munich Security Conference. Now again, such a development which we saw on Friday, for us again, is a signal that United States perhaps disengaging both from security of Ukraine and perhaps from security of European continent, which is, well, they have such a right to decide, but that is not, in my view, it's not very prudent, because, despite the fact that American side, they are declaring that security of Ukraine is just the responsibility of Europe, I think that this is a wrong approach, because if Ukraine will fail in defense of their own security, their own sovereignty, that will bring, of course, a lot of threats, first of all, to Europe, but also it can bring a lot of new global developments, especially among what is the axis of aggressive authoritarians, it's Russia, it's Iran, it's North Korea, but also China is not far away from that axis. And China is absolutely clear, they are watching what is happening in Ukraine, and if they think the West is weak, that we cannot help Ukraine to withstand such an aggression, China will make a conclusion to say we can also become much more aggressive, either towards Taiwan or in some other directions. So that is why I mean American thinking that it will not impact their situation. I consider this to be quite a wrong assumption.

Sidhant Sibal: But what can the European Union do to make sure that European security is preserved? What can you give to Ukraine that is essential for its own defense needs at a time when it looks like the Americans are not supportive of President Zelensky.

Andrius Kubilius: First of all, we need to look into how much we were supporting Ukraine till now. So again, despite the fact that President Trump is trying to declare that only America was supporting Ukraine, that Europeans were not doing our part of responsibility. The real numbers are showing very clearly our support for Ukraine, our support was by 30% bigger than American support. Second, if you look into military support, and to calculate all the European member states, not only EU member states, but also Great Britain and Norway, in addition, then our military support is very similar to what Americans give. It's around 60 billion euros. It's quite a lot, definitely. But if you re-calculate how much both Americans and we are giving support per year to Ukraine, military support, we shall get a very simple number. It's below 0.1% of our GDP. So, we are ready to spend on our own defense, around 3% of our GDP and Ukraine we are giving 0.1% and Americans are giving 0.1%. It is not zero, but also it's not, you know, one or 2%, so we can give more. And if Americans will withdraw, I'm not sure if we Europeans will find a way to keep, really, Ukraine capabilities to fight for their independence on that level.

Sidhant Sibal: So far, for the last 70 years, European security has been backed by the Americans. So what happens to Europe? We have a phrase called Atmanirbhar Bharat. Are we looking at an Atmanirbhar European Union? European Union that can sustain on its own? And also, where do you see the future of NATO?

Andrius Kubilius: Well, definitely, that's one of the topics which we are discussing now. It's for us, it's not something totally unexpected. I myself, I was always repeating that, from the threat point of view, we have urgent threats, it's Russia. We need to be really very urgent in our development of our capabilities, because during the next five years, Russia can start aggression against us. A second threat is rising Chinese military power, which will, in my prediction, this rising Chinese military power will push Americans to shift more and more defense resources towards the Chinese direction, to mitigate China, but I was always considering that that could come in the next decade. Now, perhaps it's coming much more quickly, but it means the same. We need to take responsibility for European defense on our shoulders. Now it's more urgent, we need to recalibrate, recalculate our plans, but I'm sure that we, with all our economical power, which is we're economically, we're 10 times stronger than Russia, we can do our job. 

Sidhant Sibal: And do you think that Ukraine can become a member of NATO and it can become a member of the European Union? 

Andrius Kubilius: Ukrainian membership for the European Union, this is a task, both for Ukraine and for the European Union. And as you know, negotiations of this membership going on, I think that also geopolitical situations can bring  steps from both sides, both from Ukraine and from our side, to make these negotiations more and more effective, more quick, in order to have Ukraine as a member of EU very soon. Now, we are developing different programs on how to integrate Ukraine, first of all, into our single economic market and we're looking how to integrate Ukrainian defense industry and European defense industry that would be beneficial for Ukraine, but also beneficial for us, because Ukrainian defense industry became very strong during two years period of time since the beginning of the war, Ukrainian defense industry increased their capacity to produce weapons by 35 times, from 1 billion euros in 2022 up to 75 billion Euro last year. So this is what we see as also beneficial for us to learn from them how to do such a big bang in this industry. On NATO, that is for NATO to decide. We know that Americans are now against such kind of membership, but well, we shall see how things will develop later on. 

Sidhant Sibal: How do you see India's position on the war in Ukraine?

Andrius Kubilius: India is a very important strategic, commercial, geopolitical player, and we remember Prime Minister Modi's visit to Kyiv. That was a very strong signal. And India always is supporting international borders, territorial integrity and sovereignty of the countries. We can look into the future, and how to find the best solutions for our common position. Definitely, we're looking how to implement EU and American sanction policy towards Russia much more effectively, especially in sanctions on export of their oil and gas, because that is how Russia is still financing their war efforts, and that is why I think that we can really look for good understanding and good cooperation, also with India.

Sidhant Sibal: During the visit, the big announcement was India EU Space dialogue, if you can detail on that. Also, on maritime cooperation, what can one expect?

Andrius Kubilius: Space dialogue is very important, because really, India is a very dynamic and ambitious space player. We are informed about the very ambitious space agenda of Prime Minister Modi, the exploration of the moon, you were the first country to land on the south pole of the moon. You are planning to have a space station. Very impressive achievements. The European Union is also very strong in space, especially development of systems which are giving very high quality services to all the people, including to Indian people. We're looking how, how to offer to India some services which will be provided by our system. And we can look into a longer future. There will be a lot of new possibilities, like exploration of the moon and later on Mars. We can be very good partners with India. On maritime awareness, again, that is very important, especially in the Indo Pacific. It's a very important area of our cooperation.

Sidhant Sibal: EU plans to put a liaison officer at the Indian Ocean Information Fusion Center here in Gurgaon. When can we see the liaison officer taking charge and how important it will be for the European Union to have its eyes on the Indian Ocean through the Indian Center?

Andrius Kubilius: As I understand, there is an agreement to have such a representation in this office. It's not my portfolio directly, but I understand how important it is, and as I understand some technical issues to be agreed in order to implement that agreement. Second, definitely, maritime awareness, especially of this region, is very important. And here we can look into all the new technological developments, how to implement that surveillance of the situation, using our space capacities, using our underwater capacities, and so on. So that's for sure. Now, again, from one side, it's very important, from another side, it will be a good symbol of our strong cooperation on strategic issues.

Sidhant Sibal: During the talks in Delhi, how much was the focus on the war in Ukraine?

Andrius Kubilius: I had the chance to have direct talks, direct conversation with the State Minister of Defense, also with the Minister of Space and also with the leadership of the Space Agency. And of course, I will inform them how we see the whole situation on the European continent. What does it mean for us to be facing the threats which we are facing from the Russian side. And what does it mean from a practical point of view. We have a very clear evaluation by intelligence services of how dangerous the situation can become. So, we need to ramp up our production, and that is where cooperation between our defense industries and space industries is becoming very important. 

Sidhant Sibal: So my last question to you is your last word on how the European Union plans to deal with the United States, with Trump's United States, which is right now looking very difficult.

Andrius Kubilius: That is what worries us, because the transatlantic relationship was crucial not only for security in Europe, but also for global stability and security. We are not changing our position. Unfortunately, we see that some changes, perhaps, are starting to appear in Washington, DC, with a new administration. No, we can just guess what is coming next. I doubt if we can, you know, influence that position. We shall not change that position, but we need to be prepared to take at least much more responsibility on our own security and our own defense. In the economic field, I would say that the approach of the new administration to start tariff wars with everybody, starting from Canada and Mexico, EU. We think this is a big mistake from the American administration. But if they will introduce any kind of tariffs, we shall answer the same. And my economic understanding is that, you know that at the end, it will be such a situation that all of us shall suffer. It's not that, you know, Americans will win some kind of economic benefit.

Sidhant Sibal: End of a transatlantic relationship. Do you see that?

Andrius Kubilius: Well, as I said, we are standing on the same basis. What Americans are deciding to change is their attitude. It does not depend on us. We consider that the transatlantic relationship is of strategic importance. But you know, some experts are speaking about the signals that the American administration, new American administration is looking for friendship, for example, with Russia and maybe even with China. So in my view, friendships with totalitarian regimes will never bring good outcomes.