G20's next chair Brazil pins hope on India as Ambassador Felix cites efforts on joint statement

As Brazil prepares to assume the G20 Chair in 2024, the country's ambassador to India, Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega, has expressed optimism about the role of India in bridging global divides. Ambassador Felix commended India's expertise in fostering unity amidst challenges, particularly regarding the G7-Russia-China dynamics at the G20 grouping and the possibility of a joint statement. Speaking to our diplomatic correspondent Sidhant Sibal, he said, "India's Chairmanship has shown real expertise in trying to bridge those differences. Brazil, I think, perhaps will benefit from the efforts India has been making in addressing this divide".

While India will be hosting the G20 summit in September, Brazil, who is the next chair of the grouping, will be hosting the summit year. The Ambassador emphasized the importance of the G20's focus on global concerns while acknowledging geopolitical realities such as the Ukrainian conflict. "The G20 should focus without prejudice on the geopolitical realities we are living in... addressing the concerns of the majority of humanity," he remarked.

Commenting on India's upcoming G20 summit in September, Ambassador Felix praised India's leadership, objectivity, and commitment to consensus-building. He highlighted the advantage Brazil would have in building upon India's presidency, ensuring a strong and fruitful chairmanship in 2024. Ambassador Felix also underscored the potential of the India-Brazil relationship in defence and industrial collaboration. "The relationship provides the basis for a more profound debate and discussion in the defence area... synergies can be explored," he said. Full interview.

WION: India will be hosting the G20 summit, it is a matter of a few days now. How do you see the Indian presidency of the G-20 grouping?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:First and foremost, thank you for inviting me to this interview. I have only words of praise for the Indian chairmanship. I think India shows leadership and objectivity and a sense of consensus-building should be the underlying motivation for conducting such a presidency. So in Brazil, we will have the luck of building a very solid chair ship. So I think that this is to our advantage, the next Presidency of the G 20.

WION:Brazil will be the next president of the G 20 grouping. There will be an official handing over ceremony as well. So what will be the key priorities for Brazil as the chair of the G 20 grouping?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Well, I think the first and foremost, is putting at the center of the discussions of the G 20, the three dimensions of sustainable development which is economic, social, and environmental. I think that this has been now for more than 30 years the pillars of international climate law. And sometimes these three dimensions do not get addressed in a balanced way as we think it should be. I think a second priority would be advancing the process of reform of multilateral organizations, so that they become more inclusive, so that the basic interest and agenda of the global south be mainstreamed and 3rd I think is financing. And Brazil in this case, would like to see, to promote synergy between the Sherpa and the financial tracks, in order to develop creative financial instruments in order to address the new realities of the developing countries, the global South. After the pandemic, economic recovery has been quite uneven throughout the world. I think developing countries are fighting budgetary tightness, difficulties in servicing debt. So that rescheduling, I think new concessional efforts should also be included in this package of reform of the financial institutions. And also of course, advancing the gender agenda and so that the fighting for, for more balanced in women's contribution to society, to the economy, and also fighting violence & gender violence.

WION:A lot of similarities, in many senses, you have used the term global south - something that India has been also focusing on.

So how do you see India focusing on issues like these as well, like of course global south, inclusion of African Union in the grouping that has received a lot of support, especially at the BRICS summit.

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Right, right. You're right. I think we have been lucky because we have been having successive chair ships of the G 20 - Indonesia, India and Brazil and if I'm not mistaken, the next country will be South Africa. So I think it contributes to consolidating the mainstreaming, the development of the global south agenda in the world discussion. So I think we are very lucky in having a string of emerging countries presiding over the G20.

WION:How hopeful you are, sir, for a joint statement during the Indian presidency of the G 20 grouping because we know there's a division in the grouping G7 versus Russia and China. So are you hopeful that there will be a joint statement this time because it impacts your presidency as well?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Well, I think that the Indian Chair ship has been showing real expertise in trying to bridge those differences. Of course, they are challenging differences. Brazil, I think perhaps will benefit from the efforts India has been making in addressing this divide. Perhaps we are going to reap the results of those efforts. But I think that the G20 should focus without prejudice of the geopolitical realities we are living in. The Ukrainian conflict, which Brazil condemned clearly in the multilateral fora, but we should also see G 20, addressing the great concerns of the majority of humanity. So we are hopeful that these bridges can be built over this divide.

WION:So now moving on to BRICS, you're part of the BRICS grouping, how do you see the summit outcomes, the summit that happened in South Africa, that had one of the key outcomes as the expansion of the grouping as well?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Well, I think that one of the main takeaways of this summit is certainly the expansion of BRICS. I think the fact that 30 or more countries have shown interest, concrete interest in joining BRICS speaks in and of itself. In fact, we see countries looking for more multipolarity, more inclusiveness, having more interest in benefiting from new spaces or additional spaces of dialogue of consensus building. So, BRICS offers the global south this opportunity. I think this is very important. And, of course, BRICS has always and once again voiced its interest for the reform of the multilateral institutions of governance. And this is a key factor in attracting the countries of the global south. So for our expansion, strengths are BRICS updates, BRICS in the sense of being a group more prepared with more legitimacy to cope with the global challenges, which in our multi-global challenges is right.

WION:So you were the Sou Sherpa as well, for the BRICS grouping for Brazil. If you can talk about the conversations that are happening in terms of where BRICS sees itself, at a time of great geopolitical flux. How do you see this group being a fact of stability at a time when we feel a lot of distress?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Well, I was a former sherpa of BRICS for almost two years and a half. What I think, that behind closed doors we can see the true dynamics of the discussions and I would call these dynamics inclusive dynamics. Brazil, of course, discussions were also very intense. But at the end of the day, there was a common sense that consensus was the key, the key issue, the key basis for maintaining the group together, so Brazil, for example, always at the end of the discussions of the negotiations of a joint statement, Brazil could recognize Brazil in terms of language and themes, which were included in the joint statement. So I think this culture of BRICS, the tradition of consensus building is very important, in the days we live. It shows also that the expansion of BRICS as I said before, that the group has been able to, to update itself in terms of membership also and geographical diversity, for that matter, because of course, we have six countries coming from Latin America, Middle East, Asia, Africa.

WION:Now moving on to the bilateral aspect, how do you see India Brazil relationship going forward? How do you see this relationship in terms of its substantive portion of discussion? And also, are we looking at some kind of conversation on trading in the national currencies because this is something that India is really pushing and also in connecting the payment systems of the two countries?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Well, let me just say take a step. Before I answer your question, in your previous question, you observed that I was a former Sherpa. The experience of being a former Sou Sherpa made me a firm believer in Brazil-Indian bilateral relations in more than one dimension. But I think focusing on the dimension you're interested now. I think the two countries have developed throughout those many years. 2 countries developed a mutual trust when you coordinate for 70 years and based on shared values and also common perceptions of the global challenges. We develop trust and trust is a keyword here, I would say is a keyword. So trust plus the sheer size of both countries in terms of GDP and population, natural resources, biodiversity, and so on and so forth, I think make the two countries very strong, make can make the two countries mainstays of the big global discussions when it comes to this very complex challenges we face these days. And of course, we are worried as India is worried about maintaining the trade flows open. And in this respect, we voiced in our BRICS statement, our concern that environmental issues could be the basis for the next wave of protectionism. I'm not saying that environmental concerns should not be reflected in trade law. But when you bring in environmental concerns to trade law, you should also bring the principles underlying climate change law being common, but differentiated responsibilities, historical responsibilities for global warming, and we not we are not seeing those new, those new regulatory schemes being developed by the developed world as really taking on board climate and environmental concerns, as conceived and discussed in the climate change or for that matter, environmental negotiation and negotiating forum.

WION:Essentially, the relationship hinges on many things. One, of course, looks like the defence relationship. In fact, even as we speak, the commander of the Brazilian Army is here in India. So what kind of cooperation are we looking for when it comes to the defence relationship India is very keen when it comes to its own defence equipment being brought by countries including Tejas and other missile systems. If you have any update on that, are you interested in India's Tejas?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Yes, yes, very much. What I can of course share with you because these discussions going on are delicate, sensitive discussions. But what I can tell you is, as I said before, the basis of trust is based on a very long history of bilateral relationships. The relationship provides the basis of having a more profound debate, discussion and relations in the defence area. Brazil has a strong industrial base. Of course, India has a very strong industrial defence base. And there can be synergies which can be explored. I think, for example, concerning aeroplanes, concerning missiles, and so on and so forth. And so we think, in connecting the industrial defence basis, I hope to hold a lot of promise

WION:So we could see some kind of major, perhaps buying from the Indian side.

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:The key word when it comes to our cooperation and relations in terms of defence, as well as in other areas. I think the key word is partnership in the sense, that we want to sell to India, or India wants to sell to Brazil, but we want to be partners. I think this is another keyword here.

WION:Both countries also partners in reforming the United Nations Security Council. Are you hopeful that one day there will be a reform and both Brazil and India could become permanent members of a grouping that is stuck in the world of the 1940s?

Kenneth Felix Haczynski da Nobrega:Yes, as you said, I think I couldn't agree, the world, the multilateral governance institutions are stuck in terms of structure and they say the decision-making process in 1945 as a matter of fact. So, if you cannot manage to discuss the reform of the UN system, including us and most importantly, the Security Council. We will, we're afraid that we're seeing, we will see the international multilateral governance institutions more and more non-responsive to the great challenges of the world and not reflecting the majority of humanity's aspirations. So I think it's very important, we are hopeful that this can be carried out of course, perhaps not in the near future. But in the future, this can be concretized.

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